Introspection night!

[pphaneuf]

I like waking up some people. It's rare I get to do it, with my sleep patterns, but I enjoy it when it happens.

Had a good time at cpirate's Nitiversary yesterday. An odd even higher than usual number of moments where I noticed how my way of thinking is different than that of others.

The work week flew by incredibly quickly, but the friday was one of these marathon 16 hour days. Productivity severely tapers off toward the end, of course, particularly as I bounced ideas with cpirate and wlach, but managed to produce some good evilness. We went for a beer at Old Dublin after, which has rather loud, but sometimes deliciously odd music (for an irish pub). We left the place to the sound of Björk, which was awesome.

It's actually a cold night tonight. And I'll be alone in my bed, and I'm looking forward to it. I rarely miss having the bed for myself (the opposite is more common, yes!), but I do like it sometimes. Not that I haven't had it this week sometimes, but I don't know, tonight seems likes a stretch out in my bed kind of night. Or morning, as it may be, since I felt like doing groceries and driving around, and it is now ridiculously late (or amazingly early). Hmm, pierogies for dinner tomorrow!

Some thoughts I've simmered for a long time, and often find myself trying to explain in an inarticulate way, so I'll write them down and just point at this entry. :-)

How do people in exclusive relationships deal with being attracted to someone else, particularly when it's not just a physical kind of attraction, but that there really seems to be something? What's the agreement exactly in a "conventional relationship"? I understand that physical displays of affection would be off-limit and considered cheating, but what about the feelings? "I'm in love with this other guy, but I'm not cheating!", is that true? To me, the feelings would count at least as much, and I've let my exes get very close physically to some persons where there wasn't much attraction without flinching, and feeling cheated upon when seeing simple holding of hands where I felt this wasn't the case.

If you are with someone who expects you to love him/her exclusively, would you break up if you found yourself not doing so? Is it more fair and respectful to do so, as you would be effectively "cheating" by breaking what was more or less agreed upon? Or would that be unfair? Hmm, maybe it's unfair but respectful?

In my opinion, this is just a completely unreasonable request, and someone insisting on something so ludicrous as requiring me to have total control on my emotions (as opposed to acting or not upon them) would find themselves free to require this of someone else soon enough...

Comments

[jaramin.livejournal.com]

I would talk about it before breaking up. It's something that I would have discussed at the beginning of the relationship anyway. Things do change however, so yeah, I'd talk about it. It's about being honest and authentic. If it's not acceptable to the other person, and it's not just a fleeting thing, I guess that would spell breakup. I can't see how it would be unfair on behalf of the person, I could however from the perspective that the world/reality allows this to happen to those who don't want.

[azrhey.livejournal.com]

It is really a weird subject. Some people think that they can only love one person at a time. You can love as many family members as there are but romantic love involves only one person. I personnaly disagree but to each their own.

As for "cheating" it is more a question of honesty than sex IMNSHO. Things should be talked and agreed on as long as all those involved are ok with the rules, what they are is not so important anymore. I have known couples where LOOKING at another person would be cheating, and I have known couples where as long as there isn't penetration it is not ( now, althought I respect that choice I couldn't live with it, it lowers the definition of "relations" to basic penetration. Oral sex is not cheating but penetration is??? - The again I also know girls who go for anal only so they can stay virgins for the marriage *shrug* ).


Now, My personal opion on the matter is rather simple: Honesty and access. I can no more decide to be attracted to someone else than I can "decide" I am attracted to the person I am with at any given time. So, why go ahead with one and not the other? Because one arrived first only? Seems rather restrictive ( I understand there can be other factors down the road that can cause a "re-negotiation" of the standards ) to me. On the other hand I do prefer to talk about it openly ( specially in a case where there are standard appearances shown towards more conventional people ). If I was told that there is attraction to someone else and there is a chance of intimacy i woul wish them a good time and lots of fun. NOT being told about said attraction ( even if it doesnt lead to anything physical ) would most probably lead to a break up. Hell, how can anyone pretend to have feelings for me and not trust me with that info?

Between my point of view and the "don't even glance at someone else", there is a wine array of views and as long as as everyone is ok with it, why not? Eventhought questioning someone's feelings because they have feelings for someone else just seems odd for me.

Other than that.... take pictures! :P

[phrawzty.livejournal.com]

The whole concept of monogamy is nutty in the first place. As living, thinking organisms, we're not built for it in any case. Furthermore, monogamy as a social practice is a relatively new human invention, which, i suspect, will fizzle out with time anyways.

[drkeys.livejournal.com]

Call me old-fashioned but I prefer to be monogamous. That's just how I work at the moment - that's not to say in five or ten years I may not become involved in a non-monogamous relationship. (I find the term "open" relationship to be a little bizarre - all good relationships should be open, in a certain way.)

That said, I agree with azrhey. It's about honesty and communication, in every sort of relationship. If you talk about it and your partner can't even sympathize with your emotions (or you can't sympathize with those of your partner), then something's wrong.

[iangurudata.livejournal.com]

I've had a couple of my past girlfriends be confused at my seeming inability to get jealous. Like you, I see nothing wrong with flirting, as the good doctor said, all relationships need to be a little open. I extend that further into "active sexual contact", as long as all parties are aware. Yet again, communication is the key.
In the end, for me, it's where the heart lies. Though, as you and I have already discussed, I like to reserve the intimacy of a gentle kiss. It's a little something that reminds me that I'm special to them when I need confirmation.

[pphaneuf.livejournal.com]

That's what I found out myself, the whole thing of "one true love" just doesn't seem to be true. I'd understand someone who would decide to have exclusive relationships because that's simpler to manage for them (these have their own complications, but also have a lot of social background and collective experience to draw from), but someone telling me they can only love one person, I view with a big grain of salt.

[pphaneuf.livejournal.com]

I think there's nothing wrong with being monogamous/exclusive. I have a harder time relating to why one would be, over time, but I understand.

What I don't like is avoiding making the decision for yourself, not asking yourself what you want, and just doing "what everyone is doing".

[pphaneuf.livejournal.com]

You and I quite agree on that subject, perharps not so surprisingly. :-)

My question was more for a "normal" couple. It's all about what would "they" do, because I know what I'd do already! :-)

The whole "no penetration is not cheating" and "anal only so they can stay virgins", I find completely untenable. This is crazy.

Saying "you can't love someone else" is also untenable to me. I think that those who say they can only love one person are deluding themselves.

But what are they supposed to do in a situation where one of them has feelings for someone else?

I'm afraid that what a lot of them actually to in that case is cheat, but say you don't want to cheat?

Me, would I be in an exclusive relationship, I would recognize those feelings and accept them, without acting upon them. But this might generate friction and this jealousy thing with the other person, given a "normal" couple, no?

Then, there's the option of repressing it all and doing as if it didn't existed. I've been there, and it's not pleasant at lot, and I'm not surprised a lot of people decide to cheat instead. But this is bad too, and might lead to more friction (although it might avoid the jealousy).

Or you could say that if you can't uphold the agreement, you're out of it, but this is highly unfair, as someone in my example would still love their partner, and their partner back.

My current theory is that cheating and/or repressing are the most common, which would help explain the very alien behaviours I find some "normal" people have...

[pphaneuf.livejournal.com]

Well, if you break up without talking about it, something's seriously wrong anyway, I'd gather!

It's unfair, because the two members still love each other, and yet they'd be breaking up. But respectful, because if the other person doesn't find it acceptable, you would respect this opinion and withdraw. Or so goes the theory, but I think few people go that way, rather repressing their feelings or cheating.

[pphaneuf.livejournal.com]

Communication is the key, I have to agree totally here.

As far as "cheating" and all, in my opinion, "where the heart lies" is the most important thing, making those "oral is not cheating" people azrhey is referring to rather wrong to me. Hence my original question of what do "normal people" do when they find their heart telling them they like someone else too? They might not have sexual contacts, but in my mind, this is quite secondary to where their heart lies, as you say. Just seemed like a contradictory situation to me, I wondered what was "right" in their opinion.

But when I decided I was not exclusive, for me, that started with the heart. Sex is sort of a (fun!) detail.

[azrhey.livejournal.com]

agreed.

Me, would I be in an exclusive relationship, I would recognize those feelings and accept them, without acting upon them.

yes, but would you tell your partner given the probability of having to face the "you like XYZ? You don't like me anymore?"

or would you keep it a secret from your partner?

( in this case, -I- would consider it cheating, as in keeping secrets ).


Meh, normals are weird.

[azrhey.livejournal.com]

when they find their heart telling them they like someone else too

most people can't admit they like two people at the same time. In fact most people will just assume they like one person and are physically attracted to someone else too, but of the conventional couples they are very rare those that would admit, even to themselves, that one person can have feelings for more than one other person at a time.

[xothia.livejournal.com]

Well, the whole point of a monogomaous relationship is two people devoted to each other beyond all others. If your feelings and history are strong enough with one person, a passing fancy for someone else is not enough to risk the happiness of your chosen partner. After all, true love (not just infatuation or sexual attraction) takes a long time, and shared experiences to build up, and it would be pretty hard to "be in love" with someone else without concious effort (which would be distinctly avoided if you were to be devoted to afforementioned mono-partner).

While you can feel love for many people at the same time, as humans, we are incapable of devoting our full attention to more than one thing at a time (not to say we can't do more than one thing at a time, but each task/thing loses out somewhat). Which is why familial or friendship love is so contextual. While we may be devoted to each person, spending time with one takes away from time to the other. Hence families are many people and a moving dynamic.

However, when choosing a romantic partner, it is unlikely that they get 100% when it's being frittered away on other people. While families can sit around and share love all together, there is a special bond created when only two people share something. Yes, there are tradeoffs to this, but the benefits are clear. A secret (or whatever) shared between two people is much more special than one that many can have access to.

When I look at my love's eyes, I like to know that there are certain things only for me (sexual & emotional). Yeah, over time there will be crushes and whatnot, but knowing these are transitory, and having the fortitude to put your energy where it will count in the long term, are what makes sucha strong bond. But I think the key to all this is to find someone who is special enough that simply a mental or physical connection with someone else is transcended by the magnitude of understanding and joy you find in the complete package you've commited to.

Speaking from experience, whent he person is worth it, you want to commit. You don't want to share or be shared. Otherwise, why bother committing? It's just a matter of comfort and convenience and you're cheating yourself in the long term. I know polys will disagree with me, and that's fine, but I really think (for me) that sharing is shortchanging yourself and your partner by frittering attention away on many people or the wrong partner.

It's not a matter of requiring you to have control over your emotions, but over the actions that made you go back to the initial passing fancy and cultivate them into something more. /my oppinion

[pphaneuf.livejournal.com]

Now, that's quite an interesting reply! This makes things much clearer to me, whether I agree or not with it, thanks a lot.

I have my own experiences, obviously, but when I hear someone make their point so clearly, I cannot help but approve, even though I might disagree. This is a conscious choice on your part, you don't seem like you're just doing it like this because "it's how it's always been" or anything silly like that. We need more people like that in the world.

[pphaneuf.livejournal.com]

Well, now, yes, I would tell them. The partner might ask not to be told such things, but while people can agree to whatever they want, myself I've always found the "don't ask, don't tell" approach to be a symptom of something wrong. So if I was asked not to tell, I would have to think about this much, for other reasons.

But I remember a time where I was lying to myself. I didn't think about these things, if it was just a passing fancy, my psyche would automatically repress it for me, leaving me with an annoying niggling feeling in my soul that something isn't right (and these repressed feelings accumulate). In "worse" cases, I've felt compelled to cheat (but never did!) and would guilt-trip like nobody's business. And I'd tell myself that no, that's not the person I loved, this was nothing, putting on my blinkers (oeillères) on tight.

This was all rather painful, and I don't miss it the least in the world. This is one of the reasons that I am so bloody happy having the luck of knowing people like you, because by agreeing or at least being understanding, it's sort of saying that you wouldn't wish me all that pain.

[pphaneuf.livejournal.com]

Yeah, this comment reminded me of how it used to be for myself. On one hand, I understand better, because I have been there, I remember how it felt, but on the other hand, I see how much better and happier I feel today, and I can't help but find this all rather insane.

I found ganymeade's comment lower down rather interesting, from a mono person more or less agreeing that they can have feelings for more than one person at a time. This is more or less what I was fishing for.

[azrhey.livejournal.com]

I understand with your point of view. it is not something that I would live with right now but I thik I could, and who knows what I willb e thinking in the future, 10 years from now or something like that.

What I agree most with you is that, eventhought you make the apology of monogamy, you re also conscient that crushes and attractions may happen throughtout time. What is done with is is up to each one. What I find somewhat impossible is when people say that because they are in love with someone they will never ever be attracted to someone else ever again. Not even talking loving here, but physical attraction?


Which was the main problem I had with past ( monogamous ) relationships. I was expected to be monogamous ( which I could live with ) but also to not be physically attracted to anyone else ! ( which made it very hard to go see a movie with *insert random attractive actor* with them ) .

[pphaneuf.livejournal.com]

I can't help but think of the opening credits of The Island... "Kitchen table, kitchen table, sofa, kitchen table, out the door..." :-)

I'm fine with you having some time on the kitchen table, I'll be waiting on the sofa. ;-)

[sorceror.livejournal.com]

It already has, really. How many people get divorced and remarried, and maybe more than once? I'd argue that's a blow against monogamy, even if each relationship remains monogamous while it's going on.

I'm just going to ramble on and talk shit because it's late, I felt I needed to share and I'm tipsy

[galialuna.livejournal.com]

No poetry here. This is my opinion after having established the obvious perks, stability and magic that made this bed hopping fiend into a married woman and putting them aside for a moment.

It is fucking HARD. You are able to overcome the "obstacles" (or crushes, strong attraction, etc...) when you weigh what you have against what you might be getting yourself into, sure! But the time between the realization that you might be straying from monogamy(even if just in your mind)knowing that that was not part of the deal and the time that you actually resolve anything, can really drive anybody nuts. How do I do it? I really don't know. The UPS guy is such a tall steamy glass of liquid sex(and a charming man, too) and that middle aged guy from Marseilles is so brilliant(such a sexy motherfucker) that I really think I am not human sometimes. HA HA HA!

******************************************************************************

Most of the monogamous people THAT I KNOW that think you can't possibly love two persons at the same time, are people who believe this because they have shielded themselves, actively eradicated thoughts of anything other than monogamy working for them, but have never actually allowed themselves to be proven wrong. They believe more in monogamy as an ideal of what they would like to have just because it's wired into them, not because it is something that is easy to carry out. It doesn't matter how much you love someone, relationships always go through hardships. Let's say in one of those weak moments of your relationship you meet someone who comforts you and you become interested in them. The reason what keeps most people that I know monogamous in that situation is probably because they want to avoid inconvenient situations and unnecessary breaking of hearts(and egos), not because they think that being monogamous is the only logic and the ultimate way of carrying a relationship. I'm sure if the inconveniences(the hurting of people, people judging, etc..) were waived, people would hit that shit like nothing before! I would!

I believe we are completely capable of loving two persons at the same time. And if it wasn't because of egos, reputations and things of the such, monogamy would not be as popular. I have sincerely, honestly loved two people at the same time and when I saw what it did to me, I turned to monogamy at once! It fucked me up and I could not handle it. The inner struggle of not being enough, not having enough energy for the one or the other was excruciating because since I honestly loved these people, I wanted to carry out a full traditional relationship with each. That is not the case with everyone that tries this, though. Folks that are monogamous wonder about the hardships of not being just that, just like you are doing now about monogamy. Myself in particular, I practice monogamy because: when I love a person I do it so intensely and give myself so completely that it is not possible(in my eyes) to do it with more than one person in the way I do.

I guess monogamy(or not) is a bit like religion. It usually only makes sense to the person who believes in it, even without the need of concrete realizations of why. Probably faith that what you are doing is right and obviously you feel right doing it. There is nothing else that I love more than waking up in the morning and knowing that my day will be well spent investing my energies, my love and myself on making someone happy that will do the exact same thing for me and only me. That's enough to make ME a believer.

I'm too tired for this to even be making any sense so I'll shut up. I must have read it like 5 times but the alcohol/lack of sleep is preventing it from clicking in my head so I probably just wrote a whole bunch of crap without even realizing it.

[pphaneuf.livejournal.com]

About caring for a friend to a more intimate degree, I found that "love" in general, whatever it's "type" (romantic, family, friends, etc), isn't something that's full-on or off, it's variable. And that the usual "types" are an extremely crude way of classifying them, that in reality it's so subtle that it's barely distinguishable at times.

And loving without having sex, of course. One of the persons I have feelings for has an exclusive relationship with someone else. I despise cheating, and I wouldn't willingly help someone cheat. I respect their relationship.

It is tempting, I won't deny that, but I am not an animal. I also find that being open and out to her about my feelings for her help a lot, like taking the lid off boiling water. There's the same amount of water boiling without the lid, but it's not about to explode (and this explosion is, I think, how many people get cheating).

But I'm lucky as hell, as my going "open and out" with her, many people would have just shyed away and avoided me after, but we are great friends.

Me, the sex bit doesn't bother me at all, but the idea of lying and cheating insults me at a deep level. I used to be all "hmm, what would I do if I was cheated on, don't know", but then I clarified my idea of what cheating was exactly, and I know exactly what I'd do now. Cheating on me would be an instant break-up.

Of all that you said, there's only one thing really that I find dubious. You want monogamy? I think that's the wrong way of looking at this. Monogamy is a mean, not an end. You want certain things, and then you determine that monogamy is how you best get them. When the explanation goes that way, such as those given by ganymeade and galialuna, I understand.

As I stated previously, I find people who "do it this way because it's how it's always been done" to be rather depressing...

[jaramin.livejournal.com]

Hmm, I'm not sure I understand your use of "unfair", fairness has to do with justice and the distribution of goods, rights, liberties, opportunities, possibilities, etc. The situation would be unfair because there is an obvious inequity in the way the two feel. But the action of telling the truth about your feelings, even if it leads to breaking up, or breaking up itself, isn't unfair as it's not the cause of the inequity of feelings.

That said, I agree that most people repress or cheat. It may be that in certain situations, repressing could be defendable and even a better choice than being pro-actively honest. Cheating on the other hand seems to be always wrong as much as I try to think of an exception.

The discourse that I've had (still having) a run in with has to do with if caring for someone's feelings has equal value to telling the truth. I'm siding for truth so far, but being implicated in such a situation makes you look very closely at both sides to say the least, and what is simple from afar gets really complex up close.

[girlintheclouds.livejournal.com]

i would like to add my two cents, but i'm not sure where to begin. maybe i have to work through some of my own thoughts, myself.

i think i am conflicted on the matter of monogammy. part of me desires it, because monogammy makes those involved feel "special". and who doesn't like to feel special? but on the other hand, if you feel something for someone else other than your partner, you might feel like you aren't being true to yourself and your emotions if you force yourself to ignore it; it may also cause one to feel guilty because if you "truly" love someone then you aren't supposed to have feelings for anyone else...

i have heard that we can't choose or control our emotions, but we can choose and control our actions. i agree that honesty and communication are the key.

something that bothers me about monogammy is that it seems to me that many people desire it because they want to feel special and have someone dote on them, and vice versa. i must admit, i like feeling special and making someone else feel special. but simultaneously, i am weary that a dependency might evolve that has the potential to become negative - that one *needs* a romantic partner to make them feel special and worthy of love, vs. having that within yourself - to love yourself and feel that you are special without depending on a romantic partner to tell you and make you feel that.

i dunno... i could go on, but i feel unable to articulate myself very well right now, and i'm not even sure if i've been clear up to this point.

i think the main reason why people feel jealous and desire exclusivity is because otherwise they would seem less special and less important, and because we have a desire to feel special and not just like everyone else (or just like a handful of others).

i also think mutuality (in terms of goals and aspirations, as well as feelings towards each other) is key in a successfull realtionship (if you're going for long term).

me, i like monogammy. but i'm not opposed to polyamoury (i think... hard for me to say for lack of personal experience). but i'd imagine it would all depend on the individual circumstances of any given situation.

[pphaneuf.livejournal.com]

What I think is unfair is that the couple breaking up would be giving up the possibilities of their relationship, while they both loved each others. I do not believe much in the "love until you die", rather than there are growing closer and growing apart, and such are the tides of life. So breaking up because love is waning is fair, but when it's still strong?

Having long been a victim of it, I have a really hard time believing repressing could ever be a better choice, particularly than outright honesty. It might sting, it might even hurt, but it can't be worse than the slow grinding death of repression.

But I've made it very clear that the best way to hurt my feelings is to lie to me.

[pphaneuf.livejournal.com]

"Aren't supposed to have feelings for anyone else"... This makes me hiss, nowadays!

You touch a good point with the "need" for a romantic partner. I think that one should be able to make oneself happy, because no one else can "make" you happy. You need to love yourself, and be able to stand on your own, in order to be able to love and be loved. That's something that I think a lot of people are failing at. You don't die of it, but you can spend a pretty miserable time. Look around yourself, do you know that many people that are truly happy?

Those important people, somehow, they each have their own way of making me feel special. And as I've learned the harsh way, you can't replace someone, it's just... different.

The persons that I like, they could have some other people more or less easily. And they could, if they do wanted. There's no obligation, of any sort, not even their guilt pressing them to fulfill their socially accepted role. Yet, they are here, with me. Sometimes, you know, I think I feel even more special than when I was in exclusive relationships. And when you're being hugged from both sides by very special people, let me tell you that this could cause your special-o-meter to burst!

I find this weird, "going for long term". I'm not going for long term, I'm not going for short term. I'm here, NOW. It is how it is. This freedom works both ways. There isn't a big "cost" (being disallowed to see other people) of being with someone, so it work itself in more naturally. Then, you realize it's been that much time, and you're all surprised yourself. Heh.

Me, I'm an accepting fellow, but even if I've been there before, as time goes on I find it becomes harder and harder to understand exclusive people. Hence my call for help in this post, for something that came through as quite non-sensical and contradictory for me.

Re: I'm just going to ramble on and talk shit because it's late, I felt I needed to share and I'm t

[pphaneuf.livejournal.com]

There's a good example of why it might not be for everyone. I've been monogamous for a long time, and it's always been weird to me, and I figured it was "just the way it was". I was reminded that there were other ways, and it just felt much more natural to me.

Maybe you're right and there's a bit of faith involved. I just believe in loving those I love and being true to them, quite simply.