Pondering what to do...

[pphaneuf]

I mean to talk with some people during this trip. I'm not totally sure what I want to say yet, but I can feel I have something to say.

It's been said to me that if that favourite person was really trying to make it work with her boyfriend, she would push me away, so that the boyfriend wouldn't have any reason to be stupid about anything. That if she cared about me, she'd tell her boyfriend that this is how it is. Not saying she should dump him, far from it, I don't mind him, I mind him not knowing!

Maybe that's true. But I'm not sure what I want. I don't want her to push me away. I don't want to stir up the shit and break them up either. I'm okay with not going past a certain boundary, but I feel this boundary is quite unclear. I don't want to do something her boyfriend wouldn't consent to, but at the same time, I'm feeling that he's much too possessive and insecure, and might not even consent to me hanging out with her, for example. This is clearly (to me!) crazy.

I tried different boundaries. I tried "anything I would not mind telling him to his face". Hahaha. That was stupid. I'd rather tell him to his face! I have to restrain myself to not go and tell him everything

Another favourite person told me that if she was in my place, I "shouldn't do anything that I wouldn't like if I was her boyfriend". This one is obviously ridiculous, as pretty much the only thing I wouldn't like is be lied to, which is about the sum total of what is happening right now (okay, by omission rather than actively lying, if that makes anyone feel better).

So now, I'm going with "don't do anything that I would only do with someone I am in love with". Except that this is a ridiculous boundary, again. For better or for worse, I do love her, and what I only do with people I love is made of intangibles (the special respect, trust and caring, for example). I'm okay with casual sex with a friend, for example. I've kissed blacksquiggles, cutiecassa and even musicdieu, for goodness sake!

I guess what I'm really doing is "whatever she's comfortable with", hoping she's got things well worked out with her boyfriend. Which I am under the impression that this is not the case at all. Wonderful.

So at this point, I'm starting to wonder if being pushed away (a boundary of "stay away!") isn't worth the clarity of it. That thought hurts me.

My plan, up to now (and I'm going to sleep on this, as well as travel more than 600 kilometers with the sole company of Timin), is to tell him how I feel about her, and just ask him what should be my boundary. I'm afraid I might not be getting much of an enlightened response out of this...

Comments

[sfllaw.livejournal.com]

I'm afraid I might not be getting much of an enlightened response out of this...

Likely not.

While I admire that you're a man of principle, and there so very few of us in the world, it behooves me to say that you have a very strange set of very strict principles.

Now, I know I'm going to get some flack for this statement: but I'm unsure that your large tradeoff of prudence for honesty is a good one. A generous portion of honesty is honourable and noble, but when it starts disrupting other people's lives, it's difficult to feel honourable and noble.

[pphaneuf.livejournal.com]

I'm really trying hard here not to disrupt other people's lives, but it is a delicate balance between some disruption and some honesty.

Hey, I'm not going off there and telling him "hey, I had sex with your girlfriend" or "your girlfriend loves me" or anything like that! Just "here's how I feel about her, how far do you want me to stay away?". If he wants to know how she feels, I have my answer already made: "ask her, not me". I'm confused enough with just me, thank you very much...

[elliptic-curve.livejournal.com]

Hmm, as one of your car passengers, can I ask when you are planning to do this? It seems like this might lead to a pretty ackward trip to Toronto. You can totally crash at my place either way, but would it be better for me to take the bus down there?

[pphaneuf.livejournal.com]

I had mentioned this already that I would rather do this after.

[blacksquiggles.livejournal.com]

I think her boyfriend's "rules" are already pretty clear and it's best just to back off and let her make any and all further moves.

[sfllaw.livejournal.com]

This is pretty sound advice.

[azrhey.livejournal.com]

the question being..if among "her moves" is something that every party knows the boyfriend wouldn't be ok with... should he go along?

[sfllaw.livejournal.com]

A valid immediate response here would be to insist that the boyfriend is resolved, before continuing.

[pphaneuf.livejournal.com]

Before continuing what? Watching a movie? Maybe he wouldn't agree to that. I think that watching a movie with a guy isn't cheating on him, but that's just my opinion, and it's not the one that really counts here.

Should I just discount him as possibly crazy, and assume a set of "normal" expectations, much like those you (I know mine wouldn't do!), say, would have? I'm been doing something like that right now, for better or for worse...

[sfllaw.livejournal.com]

I'm afraid that using me as a baseline would do you no good, Pierre.

In any event, it can well be argued that if watching a movie is likely to be unacceptable; then that's all the more reason for you to insist that it goes no further, until she figures things out with him.

[cloquewerk.livejournal.com]

I don't know that you can do much before she, you, and he clarify some issues. I think you've done about as much as you can. If those issues just won't get clarified... well, I guess that's an answer on its own.

[cloquewerk.livejournal.com]

Not that, of course, I have any idea what that answer is, of course.

[pphaneuf.livejournal.com]

I agree. I'm very afraid right now, because while I might get the clarity I'm after, I might also get a clear general "fuck off".

It's a hard decision to make, whether to talk about this or not, one which I've been turning around in my head for months, and I have to admit I'm scared shitless.

[joenotcharles.livejournal.com]

For God's sake warn her before you do this!

[pphaneuf.livejournal.com]

Already did, of course. And while I mean to talk with someone, and my current plan is what I said in the last paragraph, I'm not there yet. I might talk just to her.

I'd probably be disappointed in myself if I don't talk at all, though...

[xothia.livejournal.com]

My personal oppinion:

I'm assuming that she is in a "monogomous" relationship.

Stay out. It is not your business to step in and break the boundaries of a relationship like this. By going behind his back and doing anything that you very well know he wouldn't be comfortable with, you are acting dishonourably. This is not to say your way or his way are better, but they entered into this relationship with (implied or expressed) their rules, which you knowledgeably are going against. While ultimately, it's her decision to break trust (and lying by omission is just as bad), by being a participant, you are sulying your own name (even if you feel you owe him nothing). Maybe he doesn't deserve her, or maybe she should leave him, but she's the one who's chosing to stay in the relationship.

Which brings me to my next point. Saying anything to him is going way too far. It's not your business to do something like that, and by going behind her back, you may very well lose her. She hasn't said anything or left the relationship for her own reasons. It'll be a lot more horrifying for him to hear from you, and I'm assuming that she is an intelligent, rational person who can make decisions for herself.

Consider this: If you love her, and considering your open mind to sharing, waiting this out for a little while won't be so bad. In the mean time, you can both share a close and warm but platonic friendship and mutual love. This is what you say is important to you anyways. Even better, not being able to have you physically until she resolves this issue with her monogomaous relationship will maybe spur her along to act more quickly.

The short of it is that if you respect her, you will not take away her free choice by making that decision for her, and if you love her, you will not lower her by helping her to break the trust of someone (she at least at one time) loves/d. She'll work it out in her own time.

I don't know the whole situation here, but what I do know is that getting into someone else's relationship, against one or the other of their set rules, is a bad idea.

[pphaneuf.livejournal.com]

Going behind his back, I find rather dishonourable, yes, even though I haven't done much of anything that a "normal person" would consider "bad". I put a lot of effort into this, as my concept of "bad" is rather skewed, all in order to be honourable.

You might very well be right about talking directly to him, point taken there. Like I said, although it was my plan when I wrote this, I still have hundreds of kilometers to think about it. I wouldn't tell him that "there's something between her and I", though, just how I feel. One way I was thinking of doing this was to do this in a way that assumes she doesn't care for me at all, just a "by the way, I feel like this, and I think you ought to know".

On December 1st, it will be one year I have told her how I felt about her. Despite the appearances, I'm not rushing into this as quickly as one might think. I've turned this around in my head for a few months now. I don't want her to break up. I don't even necessarily ask for anything more than the "platonic friendship and mutual love" that I'm getting now (although I sure would!). I just want a clear boundary, and I'm feeling that the only way to know for sure what he wants is to ask him.

Not taking away her free choice is why I've kept shut for more than 10 months now. And my own perception is that if she breaks the trust of someone she loves/d, with or without my help, she might do it to me one day, and this makes me uncomfortable (although I might make it ridiculously hard to cheat on me!). But there's a contradiction with my respect for her, where both aspects are valid.

I don't want to get in their relationship, but there's something niggling me that's between me and her boyfriend.

While no, you don't know the whole situation, I do appreciate the advice.

[pdage.livejournal.com]

I'd could easily write forever on this, but I won't. This is phone call worthy.

The bottom like would probably sound more like this:

No. Heck no. Obviously no.

You know where to reach me if you like, I'm having a very boring day anyhow.

[pphaneuf.livejournal.com]

Well, if it was so obvious, I wouldn't be bothering myself over it, wouldn't I?

Let me ask you this question: if there was a friend of yours which you knew liked your significant other, would you prefer him not to hang out with her? If you don't, why? You don't trust her? Just because some guy says he's in love with her doesn't make her run off and go with him, no?

You'd probably not agree to them kissing, for example, that part is obvious. And I haven't. But watching a movie? A hug? Playing some videogames?

[pdage.livejournal.com]

I say that it's obviously not what you or I think that matters. If you don't want to create victims then you would not be asking yourself these questions.

Like I said, you know where to reach me.

Et aussi... : (son de rocket)

[pphaneuf.livejournal.com]

I guess I just wasn't in a hurry to do what feels like stabbing myself with a rusty screwdriver.