Lies, Damned Lies, and Statistics

[pphaneuf]

A short, easy one for today. On lying, hiding, cheating and other dishonesty.

I hate these things. Once you get those involved, all bets are off, and I don't have any idea of what's what anymore.

I used to be a bit more moderate, that little white lies to spare people's sensibilities was okay, that it was for the greater good. That cheating on a significant other could be forgiven, that it might just be a symptom of another problem that should be fixed and that it's worth saving the relationship. Not anymore.

Dishonesty breaks down communication. After dishonesty, who knows whether a person says is true or not? How can they communicate anything, when everything they say is in question? In a sense, the little white lies are the worst: why be dishonest about something insignificant? It's a bad trend to have going.

Cheating on someone, well, yeah, evil, no kidding. Helping someone cheat on their significant other(s) also turns out to be only one level removed, if at that: you could be the next one being lied to! I did that once, and felt awful about it. No more of that.

Someone cheating on me would get their arse on the street immediately. In order for someone to cheat on me, they'd have to be quite explicitly evil and malicious, and I just can't believe someone who would do that to me would be worthy of my love and care.

Somehow, I don't expect too many comments disagreeing with me (but still, I've had surprises in the past, about this very subject!), this is generally not too controversial. But this is all about me, and to me, this ranks quite highly, so here we are.

A last detail: I haven't always been honest to myself. How the heck do you manage that? How do you think I feel about that? A doozy of a cognitive dissonance, let me tell you!

Comments

[swestrup]

Life is stuff. Hmmm. Not as deep as I'd planned, but its the best I can do right now. I pretty much agree with what you said, modulo some definitions. Some folks would no doubt disagree with you on, for instance, what constitutes cheating.

[pphaneuf.livejournal.com]

I'd define cheating a doing something your significant other(s) wouldn't consent to. If you're not sure and you feel the need to keep it hidden, it probably is cheating. Not a ridiculously strict and proper definition, but I think it is general enough that it should apply just as well to conventional monogamous relationships as it would to wacky polyfidelity crop-circles thingies.

The comment about cheating on me being difficult and requiring a special level of evilness that I'd rather not associate with, would indeed be more specific to myself. See the name of the tag I use for those posts, in case of confusion. ;-)

[swestrup]

I don't disagree. I was just trying to point out, in my befuddled manner, that I know of some monogamists who would state that all extra-marital affairs are cheating even if each of the married couple knows about it, and consents to it!

[pphaneuf.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I know. I try to keep nutcases out of my life, as much as I can. ;-)

[sfllaw.livejournal.com]

You and I have quite differing views on this, actually. But that makes sense, since we have both thought quite hard upon the subject.

I disagree with your assertion that dishonesty breaks down communication. This is a common misconception among geeks because when you can't tell what a person is saying at face value, the primary communications channel becomes significantly more noisy.

However, us geeks often forget that the spectrum is much wider. And if we pay attention to all the communication that happens, you'll find that dishonesty does not reduce the total signal you're getting. In fact, you can extract much more information if someone isn't being forthright. Much like photography, you have to pay attention to the negative space.

And to come at this from another angle, the little white lies you so dislike? They are the social glue that holds us together. If one didn't keep a civil tongue to people one disliked, you could bet that life would be more exciting, brutal, and short. Never forget that shared lies and hidden truths are the ties that hold civilisation together.

But they are also the things that tear it apart.

[azrhey.livejournal.com]

And I think I stand somewhere between the both of you.

With some people *pokes Pierre* it is a questionf of the truth all the truth and nothign but the truth so help me Cheese.

But I also understand the need for white lies and ommission.
I have a don,t ask/don't tell policy with some people, and blantant white lies with others.

The truth for truth's sake in some situations is wrong IMNSHO.

When my grandfather tells me that, if I have a son I should give it my great-grandfather's name, I answer that I would have to discuss it with the father but I am not against it.
Give that there is a good chance my grandfather woudl die way before I have any kids it would be cruel just to tell him that I am not sure i want kids, but if I do I will not name the boy Celestino which is a rather old fashioned name prone to lots of teases in school. Saying the truth for truth's sake in this case would just bring too much pain for the good it would do.

Same thing for social gatherings, I choose my friends and like them a lot, it doesn not mean I liek all their friends and in a party or jsut perchance it happens that I end up makgin small talk with peopel I don,t really really care about and even sometimes wish they were not there. But it would be wrong to ignore them or be outright agressive towards them. SO I small and tlak about the weather, but it would hurt my friends more than it bothers me to have to deal with them.

And REALLY, telling my boss I missed my bus this morning sounds better than "I wanted to finish watching this morning's episode of. Cleavage Hunter before leaving the house". Technically, I DID miss my bus, and everybody is more happy about it.


I think the important thing to do is to determine who around you needs the truth the whole truth nothing but the truth and who it is better to cotton wrap with a better version of the truth.

Say, Simon invites me over for supper one day and I realize he forgot the salt, I would have no qualms in asking for the salt to add to my supper because i think simon can take it and won't be too insulted.
Ont he other hand when my mother's friend invites us over for supper and she forgot the salt I jsut make an effort and eat it all anyays and say nothing, because asking for salt would be rude in the cultural context, she would be insulted, my mother would be mortified and everybody woudl be uncomfortalbe for ages, not talkign abotu me getting the reputation of being rude and baldly behaved throughout the community, to the extendthat it woudl scratch the honour of the family. In situation where honour,reputation and the ood name of someone is valued more than one,s personnal well being , some ommisions and white lies are not only accepted but required for the good function of the community.

End Speech.

[sfllaw.livejournal.com]

I'd be mortified, because I really do taste everything that comes out my kitchen!

But I'd probably be the first to complain, after tasting it. And we'd all have a good laugh at my forgetfulness.

[azrhey.livejournal.com]

it is a question of perception.

if you taste it yourself and find it lack salt but i say nothing, on the contrary say " yes yes it is very good it doesnt lack anything", wouldnt it be worse?

[sfllaw.livejournal.com]

Things are too subtle for that, I'm afraid.

For you, I'd generously offer more salt if you needed it. And for certain friends, I'll even salt meals more than normal, because I know they're used to eating saltier foods. And for people who eat more bland foods, I'll tone it down.

Sometimes, I'll even say that my food lacks something, like it needs more salt, when I bring it to the table. But these are just manners, of course. It all depends on who is sitting down to dinner.

[azrhey.livejournal.com]

see my comment to Simon on my opinion of white lies and ommission.

I mostly agree with you,
mostly but not completely.

:)

[sorceror.livejournal.com]

Actually, I'm a bit the opposite. In the past I would have said that cheating it unforgiveable, ever, period. But now... I'm less sure that it can never be forgiven.

[pphaneuf.livejournal.com]

Never is a pretty big word, I'd say. But it'd definitely take some significant amount of time to rebuild the trust.